Do you feel your character can make a difference?

[gbbishop]

Originally Posted by BedlamX

Cuz I'm an exceptional dude

well Yeah... that's what I said.

[GodBeastX]

If it's something that can be done on the spot, you can hit up DMs in game. If it needs consideration, Character Request forum is your best bet. If you don't get a reply you can always bump it. USually the reason for no reply is a DM posted in DM forums about it, a discussion happened, but nobody truly finalized a decision so the stuff sometimes gets stuck in Limbo and a bump can help finalization occur.

PMs are per DM requests. I wouldn't make general inquiries in a PM because a DM might not be around for awhile (So it sits in their inbox) or they have no idea how to address that particular question. It's better if requests are in a place everyone can look at it and wrap their heads around it.

I want people to understand this too. Just because you make a request and it is either denied or fails doesn't mean we're trying to stop initiative. Methods matter alot. I've seen some VEEEEERY ludicrous overarching methods to achieve a goal when something much simpler can be done. And the complex is generally prone to failure. It doesn't mean success can't be possible, but the more connection points from A to B means a higher failure rate (Generally).

Seriously consider an idea before you post and honestly ask yourself a few questions:

1) Can I simplify what I'm trying to do to reach my goal?

2) If I seek faction assistance, what gain do they have in assisting me and do they even trust me? (Good reputation helps)

3) If it's against a faction, how will they respond in kind to my actions?

They seem like relatively simple questions, but if you saw some requests, they do seem to bypass these three ideas.

Just to give an example that's been based off a few requests I've seen to help you understand what I mean:

I want to contact the Kurz Cartel to steal incriminating documents so we can setup a Soldier as a necromancer by having Dark Advent summon skeletons and placing a sword at the scene.

Going through the three questions:

1) Can I simplify my goal? Could just mind control the guy and have him say he murdered someone with undead. Get an illusion to look like him and do it. Etc etc.

2) Why would factions work with you? Why would Kurz Cartel help you? Anything that goes wrong in the theft could blame them and get people locked up in their faction. Did you even consider paying them? They need a benefit as well.

Why would the Dark Advent work with you? You're a nobody to them with a sceme.

3) Who you're going against? I'm facing trained law enforcement who don't just take everything at face value until they investigate. Are they likely to find documents suddenly missing? Are they likely to suddenly believe a soldier with excellent service is a necromancer? That guy probably built up alot of friends who are more than willing to stick their necks out to keep dude's name good.


Just think things through a bit more and you'll usually find a much easier and successful route to accomplishing the same goals. Unless the goal itself is obviously lofty. I commend people on having goals and don't want people to feel discouraged if some fail, but I can't ignore every factor for everyone to make them happen

[Usurper]

I have already made a thread for stuff like character development,faction events,and small event requests in general.

Those that have posted their ideas or suggestions have been worked with or responded to in some kind of way concerning their requests..

I have seen alot of views for the thread,but very few posts in regards to the actual topic of the thread.As a DM, I have reached out to you as players to get something rolling for your characters by creating the thread and giving you a little freedom for suggestions and ideas that we can act out in-game.However,it seems to me that only a few people have made use of the thread and maybe everyone else is clueless to what they want?

[Zoberraz]

Wow, GBX. You've just helped me establish that my memory was pretty awesome. Thanks!

The Council of Voices was a player-run elven faction that came out weeks after the very first server wipe (which was needed for adjustments because of loot exploits and such). Something about Sundren authorities siding with a Lolthian drow rather than elves there convinced Maia that elves needed to look out for themselves since the laws of the human lands wouldn't... so she managed to gather a small following (half-a-dozen players for starters) and make it so that they would keep in tight communication to support one another within the valley. That eventually grew from there.

Euniana was the DM that took it upon herself to try and follow up on our small little projects, which were supposed to ultimately lead to us having our little tree village nook in the Viridale Forest (we were around a dozen strong by then). we ultimately benefited from a shortcut in that we received favorable regard from Evermeet elves whom wanted to open up trade relations with Sundren for their ore. To establish a presence (to which the council of voices faction made for a good proxy), they dispatched a sun elf ambassador and his following and they ultimately purchased a fort of the Sundarian Outriders (a part of the Legion? I was never sure), and it was renovated a bit before ending up as our 'headquarters zone'.

GBX, you actually created a Moon Elf Priestess of Sehanine once to roleplay with us some too.

Euniana eventually had to let go of the Elf DM role and the job was left to another person whom I forget her name, but that she was pretty famous for being the player of a rather strong priestess of Eilistraee. That DM... was DM pretty much only in name - she insisted she wanted the title and the responsability, but barely ever lifted a finger to help out. She felt more like a player with DM powers to me that she used whenever she thought it convenient.

Anyhow, despite the slack, we had a stronghold and were going pretty strong then - there were drow and vampires to deal with back then. It was a drought of direct elf-dm-attention we coped with until false-elf-DM was booted out of office and that Ash came in... and Ash was a breath of fresh air for us. One thing she seemed to want was to work to make the Circle of Voices more integrated with the nature faction... and that was sort of fine since going away from the elitist elf clique thing not only helped us involve more people, but it also mixed us more into the rest of the happenings of the setting with a perspective (nature) that generally interests elves anyways. We even made meetings and grew ties with, namely, the clerics and paladins of the Triad to face common foes.

The Council of Voices ended when Venoshia happened, GBX. Not before. We had awesome stuff going on close to the end, thanks to Ash's awesomeness and some of the great roleplayers we had around (like Garion's story with his innate penchant for necromancy, how he was lured into the Dark Advent and that we struggled to rescue him/redeem him/have him be able to live with it).

Ok. Good. History lesson over. Moving on.

* * *

Sundren now does not need an elven faction at present. There was never enough impetus to start something like that. When I returned, I realized that Maia lacked the trigger point to want to ardently champion elvenkind the way she did. Plus, most elves were well integrated in the Sundered Valley and didn't seem to suffer from the more rampant racism that seemed to be going on in much, much earlier days. Also, the population of elven players seems scarce, or actually not strongly elvish (i.e.: elf cleric of Helm. lol wut? Isn't Corellon the elf god of guardianship and protection? Why pray an human analog when you have an elven one?) so it'd kind of fall flat.

It just wasn't needed. And besides, the cliquish aloof elf faction had been done once - while I was playing Maia again I was in no hurry to start over. It had been a lot of responsability, politicking and such.

* * *

If I'd have recommendations, it'd be the following:

~ Representations that non-humans do live in the Sundered Valley, not only in presence, but also in ethnicity. Such as, where we live, we have a chinatown, and the things around there look more chinese. At least the writing does.

However, doing that requires a healthy amount of work... and I really believe not so much is needed. Usually, religion is the best way to show that off, I think. Maybe there could be a shrine to yondalla someplace close to where some halflings are. Maybe the Sureshot store could have a small space dedicated to Corellon because he would be the storeowner's patron deity. I mean, orc baddies get big temples of evilness... so elf/dwarf/gnome/halflings could have little things sprinkled around to make the statement that "not only humans live there".

I quite understand why the main temples are important and that there is always going to be a focus on them... but let's face it, people are going to make characters that break the mold and pray other deities. Having these little things might make them slightly less feel like outsiders. Small details like that could go a long way.

~ The other thing I would have had liked to see was in regard to NPC reactions toward characters that are higher level (like, a level 15 shouldn't be treated like a level 5 if the DM has at all any insight of some events the said character lived through), within reason.

For example, let's say that a higher level barbarian returns to the Viridale outskirts and that a DM is present there. The typical reaction I usually see is usually how PCs are just treated like meddling adventurers whom have little stake being in said place (that also happened around the Veritas' mountain).

Rarely, though, have I seen the reaction of "Mister Bob! How good to see you again. We've missed your help and really could use some extra hands."

Another example could be a legion guard abusing of his authority to fine people and profit from it. Somehow, though, I fail to see why the said guard can muster the nerve to keep doing it when his mark appears to be a rather pissed off blue-skinned elf that happens to wear mithral armor and that has a magically crackling sword on her hip. If the guard is told to shove off and leave alone... does it even need something remotely close to an intimidate check? Doesn't common sense come into play?

The last example would be to have an accomplished adventurer come forward to, say, meet with a town's exarch. In my experience, the people on the way to the exarch would just tell the 'nobody' to shove off - even if that nobody happened to be, say, someone like Gandalf the Grey in stature and stuff, just because he was a player character. I've seen nothing like "We'll ask... sorry, he's busy. Would you like to take an appointment?"

Maybe my experiences with that were just bad. Maybe me and the people placed in those situations happened to be in those situations with a DM sadly lacking in omniscience ( =P ). But that small thing, recognition - especially in regard to the caliber of the individual - is also a strong contributor to helping someone feel he has a place in the setting. The DM that remembers that, considers it and applies it gives the concerned player a rare gift, I feel.

[GodBeastX]

You do realize nobody documented crap back then, right? I Don't think a single post was ever made about Council of Voices. We certainly havn't deleted any posts and searches have turned up zip from any DMs. I used to beg and plead for people to document SOMETHING to let people know what's going on, but it fell on deaf ears. I can easily see why going from that to now would be frustrating though since you put all that effort in and it's nowhere to be seen.

I like to consider that time period more of a "Dark Years" as silly as it might sound. We had hard enough time finding people who wanted to DM and much of the server wasn't even built. There was alot of trying some things and seeing what worked and failed.

I want to Address the Level thing in particular.

As for level 15 being treated like level 15, level 15's (Unlike P&P or permy server) can take literally two weeks to get on Sundren depending on your play times and focus. That means if you make a character right now, and start playing hardcore, in about two weeks you can see yourself at 15. And it doesn't carry the weight it would in a P&P game or a world where you may be risking something to achieve it. What I mean by that is, anyone who makes a character can and will be level 15 as long as they don't quit the server. If half those who ever registered on the forums played and didn't quit, 1000 level 15s running around suddenly has no meaning.

In D&D terms a level 15 "Hero" comes along once in a blue moon. In Sundren, they can be everywhere. Level 15, while powerful, treated like they would be in P&P suddenly make the server look like City of Heroes (I recommend looking at a video of this game to get an idea how cheesy I mean). Where the people who overpower the world around them outnumber the normal people. Even level 5's overpower most of the world around them in P&P.

I really want people to understand just how powerful level 15's to 20's are in P&P. So consider the Elven wars where all the Ilythir and Gold Elves (Drow and Sun Elves) Were warring their butts off. The Drow were getting their arses kicked. Lolth decided to send ONE Balor into the war, just one, and suddenly the Drow were kicking so much ass in the war that the gods had to step in. ONE CR20 creature. A creature that if spawned in Sundren, players go "I'm not afraid of you!" and kill it and all it's buddies Balors are quite literally based on Balrogs from Tolkien realms. You've all seen the Lord of the Rings movie. That thing walked out and the army of goblins was like NOOOOOOOOOO but Gandalf fought it and gave his life essentially to beat it.

Level 15's are like Gandalf and we have a server full of them. Every day around the camp fire it's like super heroes greeting each other So while level 15 should seem to be something incredible, in reality it's like a wizard going from barely knowing any cantrips to unlocking the secrets to ripping the chaos of the elemental planes into our own, but it only took him two weeks. Or a priest going from barely a servant of a god until he is the most favored servant to where he commands the souls of the dead to return to life on a whim, transcending the mortal coil. And he's only been praying two weeks. This is why the scaling factor had to occur.

In Sundren, this has been counter acted by all the normal people being scaled with the level rate of Sundren PCs to make it "Believable". In other words, there are level 15 soldiers. Level 15 enemies. Level 8 commoners, etc. Level 15 in Sundren I'd probably equate more to "Level 5" in P&P due to the environment scaling. Sure, you can beat alot of people up but you're not going to destroy the planet. Look at Veritas, for example, they're a bunch of rebel soldiers, not elite ninja, and they're 15 - 18. Bloodmaim are just Orcs who were blooded by whatever forces. They're up there in level too. These same creatures would probably be level 3 - 7 in P&P. A balor would probably be scaled to level 25 or 30 to be accurate according to how Sundren is leveled.

We also don't want to send a message to people "Hey, reach level 15 as fast as possible, because until you do, there is nothing you can do." If level 15's show up and just shove everything around, level lowbies are going to feel like there's nothing they can do in the world unless they also get level 15. So it actually begins to encourage everyone to super fast grind until they get high enough level to "Start roleplaying". This may sound silly to you, but this is literally a phrase I've heard VERY often on Sundren and other worlds.

"I'm going to get to level 20 then I'll start roleplaying."

People literally say that in those exact words. I like to call that the Internet Tough Guy phenomena But that's off topic.

Now, I don't treat level 5's on Sundren the same as level 15s despite all that said above. Above is a guideline, but not a rule. Even if it takes 2 weeks for some (Probably 4 weeks or so for most) it's still time they put in and should see some reward for it with prestige. I can tell you that I do indeed choose carefully who fears and who doesn't level 15 characters. I've had exigo guard terrified of people who are higher level. Hell, I actually watched a level 15 kill a bunch. I have NPCs defer to higher powered PCs quite often. In fact, I prefer it in most cases! Otherwise events tend to go "Let's run off to NPC xyz because he has the power to do something I'm not able!" or "We PCs will sit back and watch the NPCs handle everything." I'd rather level 15's be strong enough to be the difference, but not so strong that they are uncontestable by NPCs, does that make sense?

So in a sense we've scaled up the world so one wizard can't end a city's life in a Meteor Swarm like they could in P&P. Or destroy a whole city in an earthquake, like they could in P&P, but the goal wasn't to make you seem powerless and if that's how it comes off it might just be that one DM. Just two day ago I watched a single level 15 devestate a bunch of vampire forces with a couple friends who were much lower. He left completely unscathed.

Also, reputation matters alot. I can tell you, I treat notorious and well known people with alot of respect from NPCs. Kaizen, for example, got QUITE well known in the world to the point everyone was like "Damn it! It's Kaizen!" Alot of people become that well known to me and therefore NPCs I interact with. But it isn't their levels that do that, it's their actions during scenarios. If I see level 15's who just act as faces in the crowd, I don't think any NPCs in the world are going to treat them much different, but if they're trying to take charge of the situation, or stand up for what they believe in, even smite people and say "I'm the dread lord! Remember it!" then people and NPCs will remember their names.

[Phantom Lamb]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

You do realize nobody documented crap back then, right? I like to consider that time period more of a "Dark Years" as silly as it might sound.

Amen...

[Zoberraz]

You make a good point about the frequency of level 15 people, GBX. That makes applying what I mentioned more an art form than anything else.

As I remember it back then, some of our level caps were hit not because of an experience curve, but simply because there were no bad guys to actually fight and level. Once upon a time, I recall Maia was level 8... and that was high level because we only had up Mossclaw Meet to fight bad guys. Until the Necropolis was added in.

Today, most people don't seem to really bother with the necropolis unless it's a DM event stop. While an interesting locale, bandit-fighting around Aquor's mountain trails is much easier. But back then, the necropolis was our only spot where we could advance... very dangerous everywhere, but absolutely deadly on the second level with those vampire blackguards and stuff! The Dark Advent in turn beneficiated - from that point on - from a very deadly reputation.

It's quite possible some of the impression I have also dates from the 'dark ages', as you called them. I did experience the guard-screw-with-me-while-I'm-level-15 in this iteration of Sundren... but then, yeah, getting to level 15 had been much faster. I recall thinking I wanted to hurry to reach the other guys whom were in that level range so my character's abilities could be remotely useful to them in a DM event, instead of having the character be a liability. So, guilty as charged too.

Ah well. The point was sensibilizing people about the issue. You seem plenty sensibilized. Moving on. *squeaky wheel squeak*

* * *

I do stand by the suggestion of adding in a bit more demi-human racial references around. I've no doubt that Sundren is mostly dominated by humans, going from a 70% to a 90% (my impression goes probably toward the latter), but I find it in hindsight that it would be a great addition for players. To give them something, in the world, that supports what they culturally are beyond the roleplay of their own character.

Maia prayed Solonor. Solonor is like, one of the many elven gods of the Seldarine, the elf pantheon. I hardly expect 'Solonor' to show up anywhere in Sundren. But something about just Corellon - the chief god of the Elf Pantheon - would really have been a great touch.

Things like that could very well help giving some locales (like, say, the park close to the Temple of Helm) more significance to the PC as well.

anyhow. You've been really nice hearing out my points GBX... but I think I've said mostly what I had to say, so I'll have my case rest here. Thanks for offering us an ear.

[Usurper]

I remember Corellon himself meeting a certain elf in Sundren..

[gbbishop]

Originally Posted by Usurper

I have already made a thread for stuff like character development,faction events,and small event requests in general.

Those that have posted their ideas or suggestions have been worked with or responded to in some kind of way concerning their requests..

I have seen alot of views for the thread,but very few posts in regards to the actual topic of the thread.As a DM, I have reached out to you as players to get something rolling for your characters by creating the thread and giving you a little freedom for suggestions and ideas that we can act out in-game.However,it seems to me that only a few people have made use of the thread and maybe everyone else is clueless to what they want?

Have not heard anything from my post.... granted it was non specific. But I kinda see that open forum as a raise your hand and be called on. I hardly want to divulge my goals and plots publicly. I was speaking for others of the grove so maybe they saw some action as result of the post, i dunno.

As for bumping a post I feel like that could be annoying to constantly see the same request popping up....

What is an acceptable period of time for the Staff between bumps?

[Usurper]

Originally Posted by gbbishop

Have not heard anything from my post.... granted it was non specific. But I kinda see that open forum as a raise your hand and be called on. I hardly want to divulge my goals and plots publicly. I was speaking for others of the grove so maybe they saw some action as result of the post, i dunno.

As for bumping a post I feel like that could be annoying to constantly see the same request popping up....

What is an acceptable period of time for the Staff between bumps?

No problem and bumping my post or thread that is,is something I would like to see